Okay. We interrupt our scheduled programming because I absolutely have to share with you this conversation I had with my gentleman friend yesterday.
Man, I love it when someone asks a question that’s so completely reasonable to ask, but the answer is so completely … obvious (you know, to you) that it never even occurred to you that someone would be curious about this.
Blows my mind.
Context?
This came up because of the Destuckification Retreat I’m doing in Monterey.
This is something people have to apply for. I’m very picky about who gets in.
And, even though I haven’t even announced it yet and just sent one paragraph to my “Hey, I’m doing a thing” list last night, we’ve already received applications. For more than half the spots.
At this rate, we probably won’t even get around to announcing it.
My gentleman friend thought this was bizarre. Very, very bizarre. Dialogue loosely translated because we were probably drunk tired, and I can’t remember exactly how it went.
It went (kind of) like this.
Me: What?! What’s bizarre?
My gentleman friend: I don’t get it.
Me: What do you mean? You know my duck is a rockstar. People travel for hours — days — to be able to be near Selma. Remember when Sanders flew in from Nigeria for our weekend in North Carolina?
Selma: !
Me: See? Selma loves Sanders.
My gentleman friend: Oh, it’s not that. Clearly I’m not unaware of your awesomely insane pirate-ey cult following. I pick up your mail. I just don’t understand why people go on retreats. What’s up with that?
Me: Oh.
And that’s why there’s this post today instead of what I was planning on talking about.
It turns out there are all these things that people-who-don’t-retreat don’t get about retreats.
Things that are so important and that I completely take for granted. So I’m going to share some bits of our conversation, and hope that at least three things will surprise you.
Reasonable questions. That I never even think about.
This is super interesting.
Reasonable Question #1: What is it about being there?
My gentleman friend: It’s not like there’s a shortage of teleseminars in the world. You and your biggified friends are always doing them.
Me: And …?
My gentleman friend: So why would someone want to pack bags and book a plane ticket and have to actually go to a thing?
Me: You do realize that I just did that when I went to Barbara Sher‘s retreat, right?
My gentleman friend: Yeah, but you’re not like other people.
Me: Don’t I know it.
My gentleman friend: No, I mean, I totally get that you wanted to meet Barbara. You’re crazy about her. Justifiably.
Me: Yup!
My gentleman friend: And I know your sneakified brain. You knew that if you met her in person she’d write a blurb for your book, and happily biggify you.
Me: Okay. All that is true. Going to a retreat to make an impression on a beloved biggifier is a totally reasonable thing to do
But what I’m getting here is that you maybe haven’t experienced the difference between distance learning and in-person learning when the person you’re learning with is really good with … can I use a word neither of us will like?
My gentleman friend: Are you going to finish that sentence?
Me: I can’t think of a non-California way to say it. Oof. Stuff like “holding the space”, “creating the container”, “working with energy” … but I don’t like any of those phrases.
My gentleman friend: That thing you do when the room gets all buzzy and tingly? Like the crazy force field effect?
Me: Yeah.
Reasonable Question #2: But why is that so important?
My gentleman friend: Okay, so that’s a cool experience but I still don’t get why it’s so important that you would go on a retreat.
Me: I love how you say retreat the way I would say dead fish.
My gentleman friend: And you adore me for it.
Me: Right.
My gentleman friend: What I’m more curious about is … what is it about this experience that matters?
Me: Well, there’s something weirdly magical and transformational that happens when you go to a space with that kind of person.
It’s like a ritual of transition.
With a huge amount of power in it. If you put a week of your life to doing nothing but being in that transformational experience, and you’re doing it with someone who is brilliant and fun and has great material, you come out having shed a skin.
You’ve walked into this version of you who knows how to access more of your you-ness. It’s still you, but now you know what you need and how to get it.
My gentleman friend: Wow.
Me: Yeah.
Reasonable Question #3: But the money!
My gentleman friend: It’s still crazy how much of a financial investment it is, though.
Me: Mmm. Not really. And I’m saying that, even remembering all the years when I couldn’t even consider putting money towards anything that wasn’t food or rent.
My gentleman friend: What makes you say that?
Me: Two reasons. One is that the kind of transformation that happens in that kind of environment is really intense. Things happen quickly, so much more so than however many years of therapy or coaching are going to get you there.
My gentleman friend: And?
Me: The second thing is that you always make money from going on retreat, if you do it right?
My gentleman friend: ???
Me: You meet people. They either buy your stuff or help you create stuff or tell people about your stuff.
My gentleman friend: Really?
Me: Dude. You live with me. Alright. Examples.
Examples.
Me: Listen. Half the people at Barbara’s retreat ended up buying one of my products after we got home. And three of them are applying to the Kitchen Table.
My gentleman friend: How did you manage that?
Me: I didn’t. I have no idea how that happened. I didn’t go there planning to have people buy my stuff — I didn’t even talk about my stuff, other than mentioning that it existed when people asked me how my business works.
But yeah, I’ve more than made back what I spent on plane fare and the hotel.
My gentleman friend: And when you taught at Jen’s Writer’s Retreat, everyone there went home and bought the Shiva Nata Starter Kit. I guess that counts.
Me: Pffffffft. That’s nothing. One woman I met at a thing a few years ago has spent $13,000 in my business. The thing we met at cost $900. Remember?
My gentleman friend: No. But I remember that being a terrifying amount to spend on anything. Of course if I’d had any idea that the connections you made there, I probably would have insisted that you do it.
Me: You did insist.
My gentleman friend: I did?
Me: Yeah. You knew I really wanted to do it.
My gentleman friend: smiles
Me: The truth is that every product and every course I’ve done have come together because of the help of fabulous people I’ve met while taking someone else’s program. It’s like, the best bonding experience in the entire world.
My gentleman friend: And other people do this too? It’s not just you?
Fine. More examples.
Me: When I was at Jennifer Louden’s retreat, there were a bunch of my Kitchen Table people there. And when I taught my retreat in North Carolina, there were also a bunch of Kitcheners there.
And they’ve started joint-venture-ing up a storm, except they wouldn’t call it that. But they’re teaching programs together and promoting each other’s things in this really sweet, organic, beautiful way.
My gentleman friend: Okay. But they already kind of knew each other, through you.
Me: Right, but when they start doing this “hey, let’s biggify each other” thing at the retreat, other people see them do it. And then they start doing it. It’s stunning.
My gentleman friend: So you’re basically saying, don’t go to a retreat for the content. Instead, go to hook up with the biggified person teaching it and to make monies either from or with the other people in it.
Me: I’ve actually already made that point in a post a while back. But yeah. That’s a great reason to retreat.
Well, that and the insane transformational experience that makes everything in your life way, way better.
And the support network of people who really get you.
And the hilarity that happens when you’re an adult who gets to go to what’s basically a week long slumber party.
My gentleman friend: You are a very odd person and I like everything about you.
Selma: !
Me: !
That’s it.
I hope some of this was interesting. If not, then hey, you got a peek into my strange little life.
And a bit of my philosophy of retreating (not the same of my philosophy of run awaaaaaaaaaaaay! which is also a very good philosophy).
Comment zen for today?
Same as usual. We all have our stuff. We’re all working on our stuff. We’re practicing.
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Havi, you and your Gentleman Friend should SO take this show on the road. Or at least on TV!
Biggification Street by Havi, GF and Selma the Wonder Duck! (And the Muppets!) 🙂
xoxo Hiro
.-= Hiro Boga´s last post … Follow the Yellow Brick Road — Create the new story of your business in 2010 =-.
This is so awesomely true, about the people you meet there being as important as the content.
I mean, really – getting to spend days sitting at Barbara Sher’s feet (so to speak), and ALSO bonding with you in introvert hysteria? Freaking priceless, as far as I’m concerned.
Something else I just figured out (about ze monies): if you have a little baby internet biz, these biggification retreats are considered TAX DEDUCTIBLE EXPENSES. This having a business that is all about Your Thing (a.k.a. your Mission From God) conveniently ties up a lot of life stuff in one tidy knot.
Oh, I *hate* the expression ‘holding the space’. Or ‘the circle’. Wank wank wank. *So* vague. I mean, I work a *lot* with ceremony and ritual, so obviously the whole ritual energy thing is totally part of my paradigm, but I hope one of my friends will be on hand to slap me the day I start talking about ‘holding the space’.
No offence to people who use that expression, of course. If it works for you, that’s great. I mean, we’re all doing the same stuff, whether we call it retreat, ritual, prayer, magic, intention, attention, weird shit, or Bob. There is no way of talking about this stuff that doesn’t sound ridiculous.
@Kate – Or Bob. you’re hilarious. And man, is that ever true (“there is no way of talking about this stuff that doesn’t sound ridiculous”). Indeed!
My goodness. I nearly got kicked out of California a dozen times for excessive eye-rolling. Though it’s great when people can read the air-quotes and still know what you’re talking about.
@Amna – whooo! And good point. It’s nice when Your Mission From God is tax-deductible.
@Hiro – muppets muppets muppets muppets!
Ok, that’s fascinating. You just explained something that was mystifying me.
I went to my first-ever retreat in October. It had painting, photography, and yoga. Yay. Creative stuff. I thought it would be fun. But as it turns out, it was the most incredibly emotional transformational thing – so much so that I still do not even know how to talk about it without diminishing it. As it turns out, the person who ran it was, as you said, very good at “holding the space” (she did use that phrase but I loved her and loved her use of it – I just can’t use it because it makes me think I should be holding space literally. And, ummm, it’s space. I can’t feel it in my hot little hands.) for people to feel safe and supported and transform. Anyway, I got home and could not figure out what happened or how it happened or why it happened – and I am still not sure I have processed it.
As an added bonus, the retreat – while completely unrelated – made me realize that this baby thing that I have is very much on the right path for me – which was worth its weight in gold. But yeah .. I am going to be all about that tax-deductible thing.
.-= elizabeth´s last post … art of the day =-.
You know what my biggest fear is on going on a retreat? That I will gird my loins and gussy up and go and… not fit in. I will be the odd duckless person in the corner who doesn’t quite get it, or offends someone inadvertently, or talks about my cats too much.
That would, sadly, not work well for biggification. Or much of anything.
.-= Amy Crook´s last post … How to Find Flow =-.
Havi: I love how you say retreat the way I would say dead fish.
Love it!
& Hiro is right, you should all go on the road. Except I don’t think you’d like that. Maybe your own personal wacky brand of Home TV show. Reality TV never looked like this before! (I’d actually go out and buy a television for this.)
.-= Mahala Mazerov´s last post … Why Holidays Hurt & What We Can Do About It =-.
Retreats are my excuse to revisit what it felt like to live in a teepee, play chubby bunny, perform in skits involving rabid toothpaste-foaming-from-mouth squirrels, and join the Polar Bear Club, while somehow proving there’s an actual business purpose for all of the fun and revelations I’m going to have, which can only happen through shared experience. I only wish I could do more retreats, only I’m afraid I’d end up in an Airstream playing guitar all day. Only maybe that wouldn’t be so bad?
@Havi – Yay! for the eye rolling. It’s necessary to maintain a healthy level of scepticism. In fact, I think permission for people to roll their eyes is a necessary element for creating an inclusive ‘space’.
Speaking of which…
@Amy – That girding your loins and not fitting in thing, that happened to me once. I went to someone else’s event, a big weekend thing that is totally transformational for its right people, but it was just not right for me. They had a very strong and unyielding worldview, which was just not mine. Which would have been fine, except that all the stuff on the website was all about how it was an inclusive place for people who like their own way of doing things. So I went along, thinking, ‘great, there’ll be plenty of space for all kinds of people with all kinds of approaches,’ and then got there and found it was for all kinds of people as long as they believed X. Which *still* would have been fine had I felt I had permission *not* to believe X.
As and when I start running these things myself (for the public, rather than just with my gang), I’m *so* going to put ‘Eye-rolling is encouraged’ on the Dammit! list.
I love your gentleman friend. I think maybe I say “retreat” like you say “dead fish”, too. And I’m glad to know that you love him anyway.
The same argument could be made for all kinds of other things where you meet people in person, as long as they are your Right People. And going to a thing that you think sounds cool means that the other people there are likely to be your Right People.
But I use this element of just meeting in person and chatting is likely to lead to something stuff to relax about what I do there. So I don’t have to worry about my “elevator speech” (tfu tfu tfu) or whatever, just being “my own quirky self” (as someone described me at the last thing I went to) and hanging with people.
Also, this means that talking about pigs is totally a great ice breaker.
.-= JoVE´s last post … Being available, with limits =-.
The way Havi describes it, retreats sound a lot like seminars. Is there a difference?
.-= Chen Shapira´s last post … Mad Troubleshooting Skillz! =-.
I don’t like retreats but I think my problem may be purely semantic. To me the word retreat has only negative connotations. I don’t want to retreat, I want to advance! (yes I have seen to many war movies. Why do you ask?) I can see using the word “retreat” for a relaxing getaway where you don’t really do anything, but the retreats you’re talking about sound really productive. They sound like the polar opposite of retreating. Maybe call your next retreat an advance and see what happens. You’ll probably just confuse the heck out of your customers, but who knows?
This! This is the good kind of retreating. Week-long slumber parties indeed! *high five*
And yes, road show with Muppets please. Put me on the advance list for that one 😀
.-= Shannon Bowman´s last post … World AIDS Day, and a request. =-.
Hmm. A retreat of any sort sounds wonderful.
But I do live with five guys, so, ya know.
But one involving rubbing elbows with people I sing about regularly sounds lovely. This has now moved slightly closer to the realm of possibility.
And I must say, it was nice ‘hearing’ the voice of your gentleman friend. Cherish the support.
xo
.-= Gina´s last post … House in the House! =-.
A’ight, question–theoretically for Havi but also for anyone else who wants to answer too.
So I know from obsessively browsing the archives that Havi has introverted tendencies (as do I).
So I’m curious how Havi (and anyone else) handles her retreats, because for me the hardest part of retreats is not having any time to process anything on my own.
Do you build in the extra time?
.-= Blue´s last post … Reading Group: James P. Carse’s Finite and Infinite Games =-.
Havi – This post is one of the most honest and utterly transparent event descriptions I’ve ever read. Such an exquisite modeling of how-I-hope-to-do-it-one-day.
One of the things I appreciate most about this FluentSelf space is that many, many, many different Selves (you! me! her! him!) get to claim and use our fluency with every visit. In a world bursting with cynicism and dismissiveness, it’s a comforting relief. Pseudo-related: I really hope to transcend my trigger-reaction to eye-rolling. Even when the eye-roll isn’t directed at me, I still always feel like someone — or someone’s Thing — just got flipped-off. I perceive it as an optic flip-off… just as if a middle finger had been used. We’ve been socially conditioned to the meaning of the middle-finger. [Insert mean expletive here!] But what, exactly, does the eye-roll mean?? Is it a harmless defense mechanism that should never be taken personally?? I ask this with 0% judgment, and 100% cluelessness. My stuff. Need help. Thanks!
And Amy, the purity of your comment: “You know what my biggest fear is on going on a retreat? That I will gird my loins and gussy up and go and… not fit in. I will be the odd duckless person in the corner who doesn’t quite get it, or offends someone inadvertently, or talks about my cats too much. That would, sadly, not work well for biggification. Or much of anything.” Not only did it melt my heart, it made me want to HUG YOU. Because I sooo get what you are saying. And it’s highly unlikely I’m the only one. So, about your cat? 🙂
.-= Erika Harris´s last post … Happy 1-Year Birthday, Joyful Work for Sensitive People! =-.
Ooops, I mean cat(s)!
.-= Erika Harris´s last post … Happy 1-Year Birthday, Joyful Work for Sensitive People! =-.
I have been on a few retreats, and I have always needed to escape for a while and be by myself for at least a part of every day. It gets tricky at times, when other more extroverted types sometimes assume that I am unhappy being alone and try, with the best of intentions, to pull me out of my solitude. I used to feel guilty about needing to recharge; over the years I’ve learned to understand why I need it, which makes it easier for me to reassure those kind-hearted, well-meaning extroverts so that they can
back the hell off for a while and leave me in peacefeel okay about giving me the space I need.On the other hand, I’ve also had some lovely moments when I, while taking that recharging time, have met the glance of another introverty-type doing exactly the same thing…and we have recognized this, smiled in mutual acknowledgement, and left each other to it.
And then the times of connection and togetherness and shared power and loving (gotta say it) energy are all the richer and more meaningful. Because that stuff you said, Havi, about insane transformational experience that makes everything in your life way, way better? Absolutely true. I have experienced that, and it’s fabulous. Well worth
taking the plungefinding one’s way into the water, in whatever way feels best.Eep. Long comment. I didn’t know I had that much to say!
.-= spiralsongkat´s last post … Blogging in the dark =-.
I knew all of that (I remember the other post you mentioned, and I attended Jen’s retreat), but having it spelled out once again as I am trying to decide if I can make it… [sigh] As if I wasn’t already totally tempted to attend the retreat!
If only I already had something up and running that I could biggify, so that I could have a chance to make the investment back before my account dries up completely – then I wouldn’t have had to think about it even for a split second, my application would be in already! In my position now, it’d feel like jumping; I really really want to be in the water, but I’m not sure if there’s a way for me to get there without having to jump (or at least not from the highest diving board). Hm, I’ve got some thinking to do about that, and I’ve got to do it quickly!
.-= Josiane´s last post … Noticing – the dragonfly edition =-.
If it were (only) up to me, I would probably avoid the word retreat, except for its delicious meaning of running away. I am a fan of running away.
But for Jon, I will call it advancing. Anything for you, my dear.
@Chen – I have no idea what the conventional wisdom is for retreat vs seminar. I always assumed that seminar was something more … busy and with more doing.
But then Barbara’s retreat was completely without breaks. It was more like a retreat from reality. But, weirdly, in a good way.
And Jen’s was also very full. WONDERFULLY full. Highly recommended. Relaxing. But with a lot happening.
So who knows. Is it location, content, experience, material or just the turning inward away from the outside world? Up for grabs.
@Blue – oh, I build it in. Like mad. Thanks for asking! Good reminder.
Because, you know, I need it for myself. So I relate!
If you look at the schedule for my Destuckification Retreat, there is very little that counts as “required” activity.
I schedule official Introvert Recovery Time (90 minutes to 2 hours of it) every day, in addition to long lunches, optional things like Old Turkish Lady yoga, and times when you get to be off on your own doing your own thing.
Because otherwise it would be too much. For me, alone time is such a hugely important part of things. Especially when you’re destuckifying like mad and you need to process.
And for me, that’s the fun of having 7 days to work on stuff as opposed to a weekend where the temptation to just cram it all in is so high.
Long answer. But yes. It goes into the schedule. Between me being a sensitive flower and my people being … pretty much the same, to whatever extent. 🙂
@Amy – oh, me too. Completely.
Actually, I’m always positive I’m going to hate everyone. But then they’re awesome. Or I find one person like Amna to hang out with, avoid everyone else and discover on the last day that everyone else is awesome and it was stupid of me to have been avoiding them.
That’s kind of why I like leading retreats so much, because then I *know* only fabulous people will be there because I get to choose who gets in.
But yeah. The outsider thing? It’s a thing. I get it. I have it. Completely understandable.
@Erika – hug!
@Erika – I totally know what you mean, for which reason I wouldn’t eye-roll at a stranger, because they would clearly assume I thought they were an idiot, or something. Whereas with my friends, we know we can all eye-roll at each other’s odd phrases and that we’re really just sharing a joke about the inadequacy of language. I would just love that understanding to exist in more places. For there to be more places where I know people will hear the air-quotes when I say, for example, ‘energy’, and know that it’s not intended as disrespect or flippancy, but just shorthand for, ‘I wish there were a better word for this, but there isn’t, so we’ll use this for now, with the proviso that we don’t get so attached to it that we start mistaking the finger for the moon.’
All kinds of jargon are alienating, and eye-rolling is a way to counter that, but you’re quite right that it would need to be fond, playful, inclusive ‘we all get this joke’ eye-rolling, not exclusive ‘you’re such a muppet’ eye-rolling.
@Havi–wow, just looked at the schedule.
THAT SOUNDS AWESOME. 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
That is so “what I would look for in a retreat schedule.”
.-= Blue´s last post … Two Quotes from Finite and Infinite Games =-.
@Kate – And the opposite of eye-roll? Maybe swoon… ’cause that’s what I’m doing right now, with your very kind and super-helpful explanation. I think my being over-exposed to the snarky, exclusive kind of eye-roll had me blind to a friendly use of it. ‘Til now. Thanks so much for one of the nicest perspective-shifts, Kate!
And my apologies to everyone for this extended interruption of the original interruption. And now back to retreats! Like treats x 2 🙂 Havi, your Destuckification Retreat definitely sounds like a treat x 2.
.-= Erika Harris´s last post … Happy 1-Year Birthday, Joyful Work for Sensitive People! =-.
@kate Bob! Awesome. (*stage whisper* I think this here that you’re getting at is how God went and got his name. I’ve pro’ly just offended all the people of 3 major religions. Ooooops. Bye now.)
.-= Heidi Fischbach (@curiousHeidiHi)´s last post … Me and an aardvark, getting down to business. (Heidi is biggifying!) =-.
These comments, *THESE* comments have been the most fun I’ve read so far. Like, ever.
Maybe I’m just feeling the glow of my Mother-in-law’s lounge (and it’s a pretty good buzz, let me tell you) but I’m *loving* being part of the comment-mice here.
And I want to go through and @ at people, quoting and saying, ‘Yes!’ and stuff.
But I’m jet-lagged.
I am, however, going to come out.
Ready?
***
I hold the space.
***
(Well, I *did* train as a space clearer with Karen Kingston, so it’s hardly surprising…)
I even *say* ‘hold the space’, but not to my corporate types.
Oh, and the buzzy, sparky room thing?
The first time S saw me do that he was like: Seriously? Can you do that? With people with C-something-O in their job title?
(I even get them to close their eyes. I know. Cutting edge.)
And the alone time? Especially important when you’re *running* the event.
Though if the people are cool, I have to force myself to have alone time because I just want to hang out and chat and play chubby bunnies (Chubby Bunnies!). And then I regret not having a bit of shhh-alone time, to recharge.
When I get around to running a conflict-resolution-y retreat-advance-stay, it’s *so* going to be a slumber party.
Pyjama-high-five!
.-= Andrew Lightheart @alightheart´s last post … Speak mindfully =-.
@Andrew – Now that’s interesting, ‘space clearing’ doesn’t make me eye-roll at all. (I’m sure it would make tons of people eye-roll, but it doesn’t bother me at all – we must have a kosher scale of mystical jargon going on here!)
I think it’s because it’s descriptive of what it actually is. When you’re clearing space, that’s what you’re actually doing, clearing out bad stuff. Whereas ‘holding the space’ just doesn’t *mean* anything to me. It’s so *vague*. It doesn’t describe what it is. What are you holding? Nothing!
So we could say ‘creating energy’ or ‘building an atmosphere’ or ‘setting a group intention’, or any number of things that are clearly no less wanky than phrases involving space, but they wouldn’t bother me because they’re actually descriptive. (Though I would need to put air quotes round the word ‘energy’, for my own personal sanity. 🙂 )
And now I’m going to stop, because waffling about whether or not a phrase sounds wanky to me is clearly in and of itself wanky. And I’ve used the word wanky, like, a zillion times on this page.
@Heidi – Hah! Yeah, I bet that’s it!
I’m one of those people who went to a retreat and hated the facilitators and other participants so much that I walked two hours to the nearest bus stop rather than share a car with them. The thought of being trapped in a metal box with these people….
(so there !)
However I do think that there is something different about in person stuff to via phone or via audio which is one of the reasons why I still facilitate and teach in person rather than do virtual courses despite one of my friends urging me down this route.
.-= creativevoyage´s last post … Retinal Perspectives =-.
Selma loves me? YOOHOO!!!
Right now, I’m in Niger (north of Nigeria) and wish I could go to the retreat…
About “That thing you do when the room gets all buzzy and tingly? Like the crazy force field effect?” Totally true. At least for me. I was at the North Carolina retreat and saw Havi Shiva dance one evening, as part of her end of week ritual: the room was INDEED all buzzy and tingly.
Oh wow. Someone I respect totally groks the buzzy force field. Another good place for those is Quaker weddings. They can lift off the top of your head, in a good way.
Am realizing how I’ve been avoiding outing my woo in front of “normal” people. Hmmm.
And Sanders? Everyone loves you. Not just ducks 🙂