Note: it is almost impossible to get on the Ask Havi list. This person got in by a. being one of my clients or students, b. flattering the hell out of my duck, and c. making life easy on me by being clear about what the question was and what details I could use.
So. This is a weird, complicated double Ask Havi because I have two people in seemingly opposite situations with the same problem. Namely:
“What do you say to those people in your life when … “
Right.
When they bug you. When they won’t leave you alone. When they think you should be following their advice.
When they can’t understand why you would do things your way and not their way.
Or when they aren’t saying anything yet but you’re worried that they’re going to. Hard!
Right. Different situations. Same issue. Different advice. Same principles.
Person #1:
“I’m taking a break from doing my thing because I decided I need to go back to having a ‘real job’ for a while. I’ll still be working on my thing and thinking about my thing, but won’t be engaging me in a full-time way.
And I’m worried about people giving me crap about it.”
Person #2:
“Everyone in my life will not stop asking me when I’m going to quit doing my thing and go back to a ‘real job’. It’s driving me crazy. They keep hinting that maybe now is the time and why would I take the risk of keeping it up.
They don’t understand that — for me, at least — there isn’t any real security in a job, and that doing my thing is something I truly believe in and am invested in.
I know I can make it work, but all my energy goes to these people and their worries.”
And … exhale.
Starting at the beginning.
First off, hugs all around for the hard. Because ack. Hard.
Both of these situations are absolutely challenging and frustrating, each in its own way. It completely makes sense to me that either one of these things would be all kinds of stressful.
So … I’m going to take them one at a time. I’ll tell you what I think and what I would say. And then maybe do a little summing up.
And, as always, take the stuff that’s useful for you and ignore the bits that aren’t. And go ahead and rephrase whatever I say into language that works for you.
The person who has a job and feels weird about it.
My thoughts.
There’s nothing wrong with a job. Lots of people have jobs. Lots of people take jobs while they’re working on developing their thing.
Let me quote (with permission) the wonderful Susan Marie on this:
“I am very boring on the subject of jobs. Just this: jobs that help people pay bills and be independent and move forward are a good thing.
We learn things from them. We combine jobs with other things. They surprise us.
And we who work in the arts often put together very quirky combinations of things to help ourselves be financially independent. I will try to avoid spraining my ankle as I jump down off of this soap box.”
Yes! Also, did you ever read Andrea J. Lee‘s book Multiple Streams of Coaching Income?
She has a whole chapter — a really good one — called Coaching Day Jobs. About why it’s actually a great idea for coaches to get jobs doing a non-coachey thing. Because that’s where you find out what it’s like to use coaching skills in a non-coaching situation.
So yeah. Absolutely a legitimate thing to do.
What I’d say to people who asked.
“I get that you’re feeling anxious when you think about me not doing my thing, because you need to know that I’m going to be okay. And I appreciate that.
“Right now this feels like the best way for me to create a safe, supportive environment to grow my thing and take care of myself in a conscious and steady way, without burning out.
“So this decision is really about allowing me to take the time to figure out what my next steps are, and to make sure that I don’t get depleted. Because the only way I can grow my thing right now is through me getting the support I need.”
The person who doesn’t want that job and is sick of being asked when she’s going to take it.
My thoughts.
Totally legitimate.
And man, when you’re working on growing your thing, there’s nothing harder than constantly being challenged on it by the people you need cheering you on.
I’ve been there. It sucks.
What I’d say to people who asked.
“I get that you’re feeling anxious when you think about me doing my thing, because you need to know that I’m going to be okay. And I appreciate that.
“Right now the thing I need most to guarantee my success is a safe, supportive environment. The only way I can make this thing work is if my energy goes to taking care of myself and my business, and not to external things.
“Which means I need you to be a strong, steady source of support that I can count on. I totally get if you can’t do that right now because you feel anxious — I’m just asking that if you can’t, that you not bring up your worries with me right now.
Because right now I need to grow my thing and take care of myself in a conscious and steady way, without burning out. And in order to do that, I need my focus to be on surrounding myself with things that support me in what I’m doing.”
Principles! We like them.
So yeah.
Both of my answers were kind of the same.
That’s because of the principles involved. As follows.
1. Acknowledge feelings.
Their feelings (the anxiety and worry they have about you being okay).
And also your feelings (frustration).
Sometimes you just acknowledge your own feelings to yourself because they won’t be able to hear it right now. And sometimes you can try to explain it to them.
2. Express needs.
Their needs (to know you’re going to be okay).
But mostly yours (to be supported).
3. Set boundaries
You need support.
If they can give it to you in any form, great. If they can’t, great.
But they are going to have to stop doing things that are actively unsupportive, like telling you that you’re going to end up sleeping in a cardboard box if you don’t listen to them.
Because right now you’re surrounding yourself with support. They can be part of it or they can go away until they’re ready to be part of it.
4. Use feelings words instead of thinking words.
When you say, “I think X”, someone can argue with you and tell you that you should be thinking Y.
When you say, “I feel anxious when I’m not sure if I’m getting the support I need”, no one can argue with you about what you feel.
They can’t tell you that you don’t feel anxious. It’s what you feel and that’s that.
5. Emergency use: the internal-knowing thing.
Okay, this one is tricky. Because some people use the internal-information thing in a slimy way, yes. But it’s still a useful technique.
If you say you meditated on it or you prayed on it, and this is the answer you got from your heart … people can’t argue with that either.
Personally, I would never use this if it weren’t actually true. But yeah, go meditate on it. Go sleep on it. Go ask yourself what the answer is.
And then give it to someone else in a form where they don’t get to argue with it.
Commiseration.
It’s all harder than it sounds.
It all takes time.
Eventually (she types hopefully) we’ll get to the point where we care less what they think. That’s the sovereignty part.
In the meantime, we get to work on our stuff in the soft (all the emotional bits) and in the hard (systems!) … and we take lots of notes.
And did I say this part already? Hugs for the hard!
Comment zen:
We’ve all got our stuff. We’re all working on our stuff. We try to respond to each other with as much kind-hearted understanding as we can stand. Lou Reed lyrics (still) welcome.
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It is like you were at my meeting yesterday. I am going to try the practice of asking for what I want from them when I show my work/share my stuff, and try these techniques, because I was ready to quit the group yesterday and I wasn’t sure if I was just being a big baby.
This Marty going back to school stuff is both exciting and scary and the part where I need to step up with my art and help support the family more over the next year is scary and all I got yesterday was the well-meaning worried questions. Thanks to having been here for the past year I was able to recognize that it was their stuff, but it still also bothered me a lot. Hard hard hard.
Thank you.
.-= Andi´s last blog ..Excellent Opportunity =-.
Wonderful principles and techniques, Havi!
And another, perhaps more in line with sovereignty/self-government, is to not engage the skepticism and unsupportiveness of others *at all*. The risk of this (non)approach is that you might appear rude or cavalier… but only to people who have come to expect your need for their approval.
And wouldn’t it be nice to wean them of that?
The bird doesn’t defend her song. She just sings it.
.-= Erika Harris´s last blog ..What’s so special about 1988? =-.
Sooo helpful, I think I’ve been in both situations. Love the boundaries suggestion ~ I have this habit of sharing a new idea with someone and hoping they’ll corroborate my excitement and then feeling crushed if they don’t. My internal bodyguard needs to maybe intervene (or have some sort of screening process) before I open my mouth.
Love Susan Marie’s advice, she is a delight. And it reminded me of some advice from the lovely Pam Slim about not beating yourself up for taking a job to support your thing: she refers to it as being your own venture capitalist, and that language really seems to work for any formerly corporate, cube dweller.
.-= Briana´s last blog ..I’m a contradiction. But first, an explanation. =-.
I like this.
I’m in my last year of university, which might turn into a year and a half, because I’ve decided to jump in and work, and do my Thing, at the same time. My friends and family are concerned, to varying degrees, about my job situation. The usual path is university -> job! Anything else seems risky and eccentric.
I like it, though. If I like the work I’m doing, and I can pay my rent and feed myself, and if I can sleep at night, then this path works for me.
.-= Ophélie Lechat´s last blog ..You know what’s interesting? =-.
I was recently married and found that I was struggling with my identity because of pressures from family about how I was going to be a supportive wife, financially and all other levels. I was asked about when I would get a job, when I would do this or that.
It was making me sick, making me feel low, making me not trust my own voice.
My husband and I decided to tune out the ambient noise and focus on our principles for success,not others’ visions of them.
We finally realized that we wanted different things for our marriage than our parents and in laws wanted.
In the end, we took control of our lives and ended up becoming closer. Why? Because we honored our individuality and our new station in life as a unit.
.-= Lydia, Clueless Crafter´s last blog ..Crafting a Classic Tablescape: Guide to Linens =-.
Great post, Havi. I love how you always honor the feelings of everyone (even hypothetical people!).
And Erika, I *really* love this: “The bird doesn’t defend her song. She just sings it.”
.-= Catherine Cantieri, Sorted´s last blog ..The curse of "awesome-ism" =-.
Yet again a wonderful piece presented in a peculiar Havi-way. We’ve been through all of it and even moved from one country to the other to liberate ourselves from “the observers”. I’ve got my day job, a very successful one in fact, but we (as a family) have got our Thing. Briana is right, there is nothing wrong with that as you can be your own venture capitalist and I couldn’t agree more with Lydia, tuning out ambient noise is absolutely essential because not doing so can actually bury your Thing quicker than anything else – believe me, we’ve gone through that before.
This is so useful, especially because you come at it from both ways and it all comes down to the same thing. Sometimes people want to keep you safe & don’t want you to fail so they try to discourage you from trying. (Been there.) Now with Havi’s supergenius (it’s just one guy) principles, we can let them know that we get it, and that the best way for them to “keep us safe” is to let us do our thing. (Which may be getting a job, or not.)
Yay for Haviness!
.-= Nathalie Lussier´s last blog ..Sprouting Guide: How to Sprout Seeds and Bean Sprouts =-.
This is a great post for me. I am the person # 2 and also the people worried about person # 2… I have plenty of external support, and no one is telling me not to do my thing, but some of my scaredy inner voices sound like those #2 folk. They whine a lot. Reminding them that my wise self is in-charge, confident, and deeply motivated from the heart settles them down.
This post also REALLY makes me appreciate the external support I do have, which in the past I haven’t let myself feel, as the # 2’s have been so LOUD in my head… I need to give all of those people some big hugs.
Yay for Havi indeed!
.-= Kate T.W.´s last blog ..Lynda Barry Rocks! =-.
After trying such techniques if the person in your life still feels the need to make suggestions either way, there’s also another option. (One I use with family often.)
That is to (internally) accept that they have the best of intentions in advising you, and let them be who they are. That’s who they are. That’s what they’d do. So I’ve learned to accept that certain people are going to advise me in certain ways because it’s the way they see things, and that’s okay. (They still love me and I still love them.)
So they say their piece. And I say, “Yeah. Maybe. Right now, things are fine, but I’ll keep the suggestion in mind. Thanks.” And move on to the next topic without letting it bother me one bit. They’re acknowledged and appreciated for caring, but ultimately, what they’ve said rolls off me like water off a duck’s back. (Oh! Duck! ha)
All the best!
deb
.-= Deb Owen´s last blog ..why you should be full of yourself =-.
I’m in both these situations right now.
I am in process of divorce. I have had a lot of people tell me/talk at me since I left my husband about what I am doing wrong… why, they ask, did I leave? Why couldn’t I work it out? It would have been better for the kids to stay! He had enough income to provide us a good life! and more than that, the people who feel that now that I am free from him I can suddenly do all the things he didn’t want me to do, and are UPSET with me that I am not doing them, because I want to (I just haven’t figured out how to get enough energy or hours in the days to work on EVERYTHING all at once).
And on the other side are the people who are encouraging me to find another relationship and get remarried!! As if the pain and struggle and stress of divorcing isn’t enough I am expected to want to get into ANOTHER marraige right away? I can’t be happy (ish) alone? I have to have another husband? And so, yeah… being pulled into a million different directions.
It so totally makes me not trust that I know what is best for ME at any given time… but at least maybe I can find a way to get people to listen to what I am feelign and waht I want?
.-= Pam´s last blog ..Hi there! =-.
Dig
D’oh, that comment got a little trigger happy.
What I was going to say:
Dig it. Now I just need to figure out how to massage your answers for the questions I get from people I know only peripherally, if that much. I.e., they’re not really concerned for me but man do they have strong opinions when I don’t have ‘good’ answers to “so, what are you doing these days?”
At least, I’m gradually getting better at not being worried about my tongue-tripping replies and the looks/quasi-inquisitions they inspire.
.-= claire´s last blog ..A personal odometer click =-.
Beacause you asked so nicely, and because they are so very apt:
Jack, he is a banker
And Jane, she is a clerk
Both of them save their monies, ha
And when, when they come home from work
Some people, they like to go out dancing
And other peoples, they have to work, just watch me now!
And there’s even some evil mothers
Well they’re gonna tell you that everything is just dirt
jon
Oooh, resonance. So much resonance.
My parents could worry for Ireland, as they say. I love what Deb Owen said above about accepting that their intentions are loving, even if their modes of expression tend to make me feel backed into a corner.
The support thing: I recently told a friend about my new blog, and hinted that I wanted it to grow into something that would earn money. And it was like confessing to a crime. Incredibly risky. The rolling sense of relief I felt when he said “wow, cool!” (or words to that effect) is indescribable.
This is what I need from the people around me: I need them to go “wow, cool!” first, and ask questions later – and I mean kind, respectful questions that make it clear they’re not challenging my basic decision.
Tricky.
But thanks for articulating it so clearly.
.-= Lean Ni Chuilleanain´s last blog ..Sunday Stash, no. 2 =-.
Fantastic, Havi. Exactly what I needed today.
I’ve found that oftentimes when people bring me “advice” or can’t believe that I’m taking care of myself and my stuff in my way instead of theirs, it’s really not about me or the way I’m dealing with your stuff at all. It’s about them and the way they’re dealing with theirs. But – either way – opening that dialogue in a way that honors both my feelings/needs/boundaries and theirs has been incredibly powerful.
The gentle reminder was needed. 🙂
.-= Charlotte´s last blog ..Intrepid(ation). =-.
Love Havi’s responses. Recognize that the other person *really is* trying to help because they care. (In my exp. if I don’t think they really care, their comments don’t really have much impact.)
If this doesn’t give me enough space to gracefully acknowledge their perspective while maintaining my own, or if they are really pushing hard, I use this little phrase, similar to Deb Owen’s:
“Thanks for your perspective. I’ll take it under advisement.”
Often once is enough to at least get them to move on to another topic, but if not, the phrase can be repeated as often as necessary for them to get the point that the conversation has gone as far as it’s going to go for now.
.-= Liz´s last blog ..Size Matters– Why Big Goals are Different from Small Goals =-.
A few years ago, I had to put up with this phenomenon as everyone in my life told me I needed to get a ‘real job.’ Sure, I still haven’t made up the income that I might’ve been making at one of these alleged ‘real jobs,’ but I’m happy, my biz is growing, and now people who used to poo-poo my decision are asking me about employment opportunities.
Your advice is spot-on.
Ah, this is just what I needed. I will be person #2 next year, and there is concern in abundance. (My neighbor likes to continually point out that my dog will soon have to eat kibble and ask if I am really ready for poverty. And that’s just my neighbor.) I know they all mean well and care about me, but it mostly just gives me a perpetual urge to write a blog post titled “please don’t be a dream squasher.” I think your method will be much more useful.
.-= Elizabeth´s last blog ..patiently waiting =-.
Yay.
@Elizabeth – man, I am so sorry that you’re going through that with the neighbor! Ick! Hard! Shoes!
I think it’s really important to remember (as I’m hearing from you) that even if/when we *know* that someone’s intention is good, sometimes knowing that is not enough.
Because, you know, we’re in pain from what they say. And in those cases we need to make sure we have some protective distance, both emotional and physical from these situations.
@Ryan – nice! I love that they’re asking you for advice now.
That’s been my experience too, that the people who were the biggest nay-sayers when they started this thing are now much less intimidated by entrepreneurship in general.
@claire – ohmygod, the question “So what are you doing these days” should be outlawed. So stressful! Really, it’s like you can’t win with that one. 🙂
I much prefer the question ‘so what are you up to these days?’ it feels so ‘of the moment’– I could respond with anything, ‘I’m renovating my bedroom,’ or ‘I’m writing a novel’, whatever I feel like sharing with that particular person at the moment. And when I ask the question it feels less invasive than ‘what are you doing’.
.-= Kate T.W.´s last blog ..Lynda Barry Rocks! =-.
Yes, outlawing questions which relate your life’s worth to your work or relationship status would be AWESOME.
Until then, I suppose I’ll resist responding, “What does it matter? Do you really need to compare me with your kids I went to school with? or with yourself? When I have a pitch for something I want you to be a part of, you’ll know.” Then again, that sounds mighty tempting. Too bitchy for sovereignty?
.-= claire´s last blog ..Pizza and the patience it tries =-.
Love this Havi; some form of that question has been floating around in my mind for months and until now I hadn’t been able to find an answer that resonated with me (or really much of an answer at all).
my version of hard lies in this:
why do so many people feel like the fact that i’m self-employed means that they can give me (unsolicited) advice on how to run my business (…when they certainly would not tell a 9-5er how to do their job…and they have no experience running a small business)?
and i think that everything you said here applies equally well to that. you gave me some great ideas on how to approach it the next time i receive that “advice”.
Thank you.
.-= Laura´s last blog ..Lessons from a 2 year old! =-.