So Selma and I are at Barbara Sher‘s retreat in North Carolina.
It’s about biggifying your work through writing and speaking, and it’s fabulous because Barbara is even more Barbara in person than you think she’s going to be.
Man. That is one smart, loony, insightful, creative, magnetic lady. With sharp, sharp eyes and a dirty, dirty mouth.
And I love her.
If I’m that cool when I’m seventy-freaking-four, the world will be a good place. She’s hot.
And this thing happened that I really need to talk about with you guys.
We did a very interesting series of exercises yesterday.
The first part involved embodying someone who totally disagrees with our message in a loud, obnoxious way.
Channeling Dr. Laura, as Barbara so perfectly put it.
So we each stood up in turn, on camera, and gave a shout-ey fist-shaking rant — a rant about why anyone who teaches the stuff we’re trying to put out into the world is a moron, a reckless maniac and a selfish bastard who should be ashamed to be alive.
Fun.
You really got to feel the essence of what Barbara calls the anti-message. And it just makes what you know that much more clear and powerful. Good schtuff.
And then?
The second part was an opportunity to refute everything your evil preachy Anti-You has said.
To talk back to those arguments. To speak your truth and all that stuff.
Each person gets up (again, on camera) and imagines that the room is filled with his or her people. Well, the people who need their specific message the most.
Except that — oh no! — your people have been listening to the bitchy, authoritative doomsayers and assorted loud-mouthed “experts” who have been convincing them how wrong they are to want whatever it is they want.
And now your people need you to show up so you can say it like it is and remind them why it’s okay to be themselves.
Powerful, right?
But that’s when it all went weird. For me, at least.
So I’m thinking, oh this will be brilliant.
This is where we get to speak to our people and meet their pain.
To be the antidote. To show them what is false about this anti-message and to remind them about what they really need.
To turn it around so that their people get to be met where they are again. You know, bring the compassion back. The empathy. The love.
Awesome.
And I know people have different approaches, blah blah blah, so of course I figured that my version would be probably include more of a hippie-ass thing than most people’s.
I mean, my whole thing is about meeting the pain first, so yes, I’d probably end up acknowledging the stuck before getting around to talking about why not to listen to the dream-killers.
Fine.
But I was not even slightly prepared for what actually happened when it came time for us to speak to the people — our people — who have just gone through some really crappy brainwashing.
What actually happened.
People did show up with their messages, yes — with power and conviction.
But then somehow they stayed in the role of the yelling, accusatory, finger-wagging authority figure.
Once they stood up to talk to their people, they dished out the same kind of abuse they’d delivered in the Dr. Laura role — just with the message flipped around.
So, example:
Instead of the (fake) message being “you’re wrong and your dreams should curl up and die”, the (real) message became “you’re wrong and the people who try to kill your dreams should curl up and die”.
Instead of the message being “it’s not okay to be yourself, who do you think you are, anyway”, the message became “it’s not okay to not trust yourself and how dare you listen to anyone who says otherwise”.
When people in the audience (still in character) raised tentative questions, fears and what-ifs, they were pushed aside with sarcasm and maybe even derision.
It was as if taking on a Dr. Laura persona automatically shut off all possibilities except for “I’m right and you’re wrong“. Like, the sweetest people in the world were totally yelling at their people.
And I got scared and ran away.
Here’s my thought on this.
I absolutely get why we have this desire to just shake someone until they get it. To “spit the truth in their face” as we say in Hebrew.
It makes sense. You have a message. You want to get it to the people who need it before they lose themselves.
Double especially when you’ve seen the people you want to help most — your people — be abused like that by someone whose advice is not only not helping, but actively harming them.
That is a scary, sucky, frustrating feeling (I have it too) — you just want to set things straight. Completely legitimate.
And at the same time, I really, truly believe that it’s up to us to meet them where they are — where they are now.
Think about what someone goes through when, instead of meeting their pain, we push it aside.
We negate their experience.
And if we’ve done that, the essence of our smartnesses is lost in the rant.
It’s not helpful at all.
Not. Effective. Trust me.
You don’t actually get anywhere by being mean to your Right People. Well, that’s not completely true.
You do if you’re a dominatrix. You do if your Right People happen to love being ranted at. That could totally be a great fit. And if that’s the case, awesome. Yell away.
But let’s assume for now that your Right People are in pain because of where they are right now, and you’re screaming at them for not doing the thing you want them to do that will resolve that pain.
As far as I can tell, that’s not giving them a much different experience than the one they got from the people who burdened them with abusive advice to begin with — or that they’re getting from themselves.
I really, truly believe this:
Our various Right People aren’t there to be yelled at and chastised.*
*Unless, again, they’re consenting adults and they’ve told you that this is what they really want — and you’re okay giving it.
Bottom line: there’s really nothing wrong with respecting the pain of the person who happens to be in it.
Your Right People are the ones you want to help.
Obviously your dream, whatever it is, is born of truly wanting to help people who have or have had your pain.
So your Right people are the ones who share that pain. They’re the ones who need your ways of interacting with that pain and moving through it.
You’re not really going to make them see the light by yelling at them for having pain.
But even if that worked? Even if that were the most effective approach in the entire world? It still makes you look a lot like the abuser. Even when you’re totally not.
The whole point of giving the world what we know is that we get to be the ones who meet their pain and honor their pain.
It’s pretty freaking hard to give people ways to recover and heal from that pain if you’re inflicting more of it by insisting that they’re stupid for not understanding that you’re right.
Finding the way to your Right People.
So yeah. The key thing about meeting people where you are is (annoyingly!) … meeting yourself where you are.
So … instead of talking about that, I’m just going to do it.
This is me, meeting myself where I am.
I feel tired. That’s where I am. Permission to feel tired.
I feel disoriented because I’m a huge introvert, and spending three days in a row with people and practically no alone time is tearing me apart. That’s where I am. Permission to feel disoriented.
I feel frustrated and helpless when I see people yelling at their supposed Right People (even in an exercise) when those people express their pain, because I need my environment to reflect the things that are important to me. Like support, kindness, patience.
I feel anxious when I see some of the people I’m retreating with yelling at their Right People because they (my fellow Retreaters) have such amazing, loving things to give to the world and totally deserve to be all biggified.
And I feel concerned because I suspect that it’s not going to work. Maybe because the kind of people who need their messages most aren’t going to be open to a violent message (even if it’s about something cuddly like self-love or whatever).
Anyway. That’s where I am. Permission to feel frustrated, helpless, anxious, concerned.
Permission to not want to feel frustrated, helpless, anxious, concerned.
Permission to take my time to work through this, to find out what I need, to ask for what I need, to take it to the Whine Bar.
And to practice cursing like a sailor because I want to be like Barbara when I grow up. Only me. And with a duck.
Follow
“You’re not really going to make them see the light by yelling at them for having pain.”
Ow, too. I’ve seen (I think) different talking-therapists in my time, for three different reasons. I would like to tell all of them this.
Also? This shows me (again!) why it’s so important to STAY THE HELL AWAY from that kind of Dr. Laura rhetoric in the first place. People want to rant that this stuff is stupid? Go right ahead. I don’t have to listen, because when I do listen, I get all tangled up in that energy and that totally negates everything else. So screw it!
.-= Julie´s last post … What should you do? =-.
Oh, sweetie, I’m so sorry you’re in this painful situation right now. And I so love that you’re meeting yourself where you are, with kindness, compassion, and permission to be.
We can only give what’s inside of us. When we’re filled with love, we give love. When we’re filled with self-loathing or judgment or self-righteousness. . . oy!
Wishing you a field of gentle support and kindness in which to rest.
Love to you,
Hiro
.-= Hiro Boga´s last post … Whose Chakra Is It Anyway? =-.
Wow. I am so sorry that this thing felt so icky. And so grateful that you shared it.
The way it played out makes me wonder about the indirect intent of the exercise. Because even if it was primarily meant to help everyone strengthen their message, it also seems really helpful to show that if we have some battle going on within (like, even in our head with our detractors) it can’t help but dim some of the light we’re trying to share with our people. In a conversation, in web copy, in a session, whatever. And Barbara Sher is just brilliant enough to have exercises with multiple layers of intent and experience and learning.
So um, like Hiro said so much more eloquently: When we’re filled with love, we give love.
Lots of rest and serenity and *alone time* to you.
.-= Briana´s last post … Wherever I go, there I am =-.
Oh, Havi, that does sound scary! And yes, it immediately makes me think of that dangerous cycle wherein the abused becomes the abuser.
And of course, it doesn’t have to be that way. There’s no need to yell when you have fairy dust!
The brave, clear and honest way you’ve described your experience here is such a gift. I’m very grateful. Sending you tenderness and compassion as you move through this process, and wishing you the best possible resolution as you move through the rest of this retreat.
I agree that when you are full of love, you can give love . . . and when you’re full of angst, fear, or other items (positive and negative) that spills out too.
So (I’m thinking out loud here) isn’t the trick to set-up, create, or build some type of foundation (call it a happy place if you want) where you can temporarily return to refocus on the positives (so that one can work from a positive view)? And shouldn’t that foundation be (well) self-centered so that it only takes
one’s self to get there.
I’m going to give that some more thought – could it be that simple that it is just a process. . . a habit?
Thanks, Ms. Havi – I love thinking.
I say this it out loud for all hyper sensitive souls, for myself and for others, that in any workshop let alone one which actively involves inviting characters of The Ranting variety into the same room as you…that’s gotta be hard and painful stuff about something you
care about, feel vulnerable and protective of.
So yeyyy to making room for yourself and not just the doing of exercises and being in the group just cos that’s what’s been asked of you and is what you see all around you. Yeyy to knowing what works for you and what doesn’t. So yeyy to making space within work/shops and at home,for alone time to retreat, recover, reflect and make yourself/oneself feel super safe again…This is exactly what you teach us lovely Havi again and again about the nature of fear/anxiety. To listen to it and respond kindly to the deeper need…
A smart sassy group of one’s Right people have the potential to learn from one’s bravery in doing whatever it takes to look after oneself – even if they have momentarily been absorbed by the ranting nature of these polarised positionings, even if some of them see Havi’s alone time/observing/compassionate position as something they simply cannot perceive right now. Just you being you’ll teach ’em something wonderful in due course lovely lady!
Wonderful that you Havi are helping them simply by knowing your thang and doing it. Thank you for sharing this process with us here and now and as always.
Ow ow ow indeed.
Hugs to you lovely lady and fellow hyper sensitives from here in London town.
(Guilty of a little rant too every now and then. Hoping I didn’t just tip into it then!)
Thanks for posting this. Because I recognize that sometimes when I am writing copy or blog posts or whatever that there is one of those nay-sayers in my head and it is really easy to ASSUME that my Right People have been exposed to that and even persuaded by it.
And it does lead to writing refutations of nay-sayers rather than writing to my Right People. Because, seriously, if we were writing to our Right People without thinking about the nay-sayer it would be almost natural to meet them where they are.
BTW, I think you do this well most of the time.
And I totally get how upsetting that exercise would be. I feel like I’d be upset and I’m not so much of an HSP.
And swearing like a sailor totally goes with the Pirate Queen thing. I think maybe Naomi and I can help you out with that. 😉
.-= JoVE´s last post … Is teaching pushing everything else out? =-.
“Hugs to you lovely lady and fellow hyper sensitives from here in London town.” – I second that 🙂
I laughed in recognition when you said you ran away, I would have run too. I’m sure Barbara’s course is great but that really didn’t sound like a comfortable place to be. Hope you find space for yourself in the rest of it.
.-= LindaH´s last post … To Tuttle Today #Tuttle =-.
Great post. It made me think of a great piece of wisdom I got from the body acceptance movement: “You can’t hate somebody for their own good.” (Not that you were talking about hate at all… but I hope you get the point.)
.-= Catherine Cantieri, Sorted´s last post … Gratitude and acquiring stuff =-.
Offering you a hug for the worried and anxious and concerned and disoriented.
You’re doing a beautiful job of showing others how to meet themselves where they are – and, by extension, how to meet others in the same plane. Thank you for this gift.
I wish you comfort and joy for the rest of your time at the retreat. Be well. 🙂
.-= Charlotte´s last post … Giving Up =-.
Thank you so much for this post, Havi! I dislike role-playing excercises like that so much that I often decide not to go to workshops just because there might be that kind of thing going on… (Even public whining with everyone else doing it was hard for me!) I am so with you on the running away!
And about Barbara Sher in person – oh yes. I saw her speak about 15 years ago (oh dear, was it REALLY that long ago?!), with a mini-workshop on Wishcraft. Wowser. She really IS even more HER in person! And a wonderful, vibrant “her” she is!
.-= G. Romilly´s last post … What Exactly, IS Heirloom Embroidery? =-.
Oh, that sounds really upsetting! Ow, indeed. I hope it doesn’t put a damper on the rest of the retreat.
The experience of being met where I am (pretty new to me, unfortunately) is so life-changingly incredible that these days I try to make sure it’s what I do for the people around me, as much as I can manage. Perhaps your fellow retreaters aren’t so familiar with the experience. Clearly, they need you 🙂
.-= Lean Ni Chuilleanain (@leannich)´s last post … Sunday Stash, no. 4 =-.
Uf. Though the experience sounds disheartening, you saw something valuable and important, if uncomfortable.
Thank you for sharing it. For me, it ties into my ask of finding a way to be heard without raising my voice/blood pressure/adrenaline. The prove-you’re-right rant scenario is certainly one which can trigger that aggressiveness in me. However, I find when I wait for quiet openings, my message is heard more deeply. It sets me apart when I don’t take on the energy and volume of animated talkers around me. I’m thinking more of conversation than presentation, but it still relates for me.
Here’s to deep breaths, quiet, writing, sleep… whatever restores you. 🙂
.-= claire´s last post … Dance Dance Revolution: First Encounter =-.
I so love that you are writing about this. I’m mildly obsessed with meeting myself, and everything on the planet, where I/it all is currently. I don’t know how to account for the massive uptick in focus on this topic for me, other than growing awareness.
My heart goes out to you in a field of activity (some of it so painful and wrong for you feeling) as in introvert, especially. I hear you one thousand times over on the disorientation thingie.
Very wise people tell me, just say, I’m going to walk alone for an hour, in situations like this, or something along those lines… but (1) one hour is not enough, (2) you’re not in YOUR space, regardless, which somehow affects my recharge time negatively, and (3) for me, there are not enough hours in the day to both participate the workshop and recharge properly with alone time.
I have no answer, I have been there (and will be there this week while in Phoenix) but I’m so, so with you in this, and it feels good not to be alone in something. Not that we ever really are.
.-= Laurie´s last post … Wherever You Go, There You Are (Still) =-.
Oh man. That sounds really hard. Sending you a magical wish that turns into whatever you need right now. *poof!*
I just spent lots of days (two and a half) around a bunch of boisterous people (my extended family) and I felt just about shattered by day three. My extrovert had a fabulous time. My introvert is still recovering.
Something about your post struck me: “So your Right people are the ones who share that pain. They’re the ones who need your ways of interacting with that pain and moving through it.” Oh………! No wonder I don’t know who my Right People are or how to help them. I’m still mired in the pain and not entirely sure how to work through it. In fact, I’m kind of flopping around and floundering in it.
Oddly, that makes me feel so much better. Thank you.
In my opinion? This sounds awesome.
Also, it sounds like what good bourbon was MADE for.
Maybe we can debrief the former over the latter when you’re back home and on-plumb.
.-= Colleen Wainwright´s last post … Show me yer rig! (Google Reader edition) =-.
Wow…I can’t imagine having to do that kind of exercise. Yikes. I think I would totally run away, too!
What Briana said (“…if we have some battle going on within (like, even in our head with our detractors) it can’t help but dim some of the light we’re trying to share with our people.”) got me thinking.
I mean, does it even make sense to give any brainspace at all to refuting our detractors? Is it beneficial?
At the very least, I think this whole situation makes it clear that if I am going to spend time on what detractors are telling my Right People, I need to be very, very careful how I go about addressing it from that angle.
I wonder, though, if we really focus on giving our Right People what they need, and answering their concerns, and making it easy for them to say Yes, does it even matter what our detractors are saying?
.-= Victoria Brouhard´s last post … Reinvention =-.
Havi, I appreciated reading this post -as a new follower 😉
I especially enjoyed these portions:
[Your fear needs to know that you are taking steps to keep yourself safe. So give it some reassurance.
The key thing about meeting people where you are is (annoyingly!) … meeting yourself where you are.]
Thank you!
~Jenn
.-= Jenn Z´s last post … 8 Organic Steps to Become Deeply Rooted in Love =-.
Parts 1 and 2 of this exercise both feel excruciating to me. Maybe because I’m not there don’t understand how they fit into the vibe of the whole program. But this kind of thing would leave me lost and confused and pulling away, even if I loved the presenter as you clearly do.
I’m with Victoria. I’m not sure I understand the benefit of giving brainspace to detractors OR convincing (browbeating or not) your Right People they’re yours. I don’t know how this plays out in other work, but when I did 1 on 1 healing I learned it had to be the other person’s choice 100% with not even encouragement from my side. Clarity yes. Encouragement, no.
I’m glad you had this place to share your thoughts. Let us know how it goes from here.
Wishing you quiet inner space & sending lots of love. <3 Mahala
.-= Mahala Mazerov´s last post … The Dalai Lama on Waking Up:Getting Out of Bed on the Way to Enlightenment =-.
Havi, I feel really strongly that you weren’t the only retreatant who felt pained by the exercise. You may have been the only one courageous enough to leave a misaligned activity, but I seriously doubt you were the only one who wanted to.
Herd dynamics can be exciting (like at a sporting event) or super-frightful (like with “bystander indifference” in the midst of a barbaric crime). The momentum of a group can run rampant, and before you know it, the crowd wants blood.
I offer you a different perspective about your running. It wasn’t fear, but sovereignty, that freed you from that antagonizing exercise.
Maybe in Day 2 you can share some of your NVC goodies 🙂
Sending you love and applause…
I got distracted while writing that part about convincing your Right People vs being clear about who you are.
What I wanted to say is, you’re a master at that Havi I don’t think I’ve ever seen a note from you saying “You should really do this thing of mine.” It’s always an invitation. Here it is, “if it’s for you, I’d love to have you. Otherwise, just hang out with me on the blog.”
*That’s* how to talk to your right people.
.-= Mahala Mazerov´s last post … The Dalai Lama on Waking Up:Getting Out of Bed on the Way to Enlightenment =-.
Reminds me of a hideous experience I had during the second Bush election. I tend to be totally withdrawn politically, but I was so outraged at the fiasco of the first Bush presidential grab that I joined a group called Election Protection to keep a watch on the polls.
Now, I am the most mild-mannered person you could imagine. But every once in a while, someone would come out of the voting both and say, astonished, “I voted for Kerry! But the machine said I voted for Bush!!” Nobody EVER came out and said, “I voted for Bush, but it said Kerry!” I was OUTRAGED.
I became hoarse shouting at people to be careful, and to really pay attention to who they voted for because the machines were every so often accepting a Kerry vote as a vote for Bush.
Then a guard came out, saying people were saying I should be removed because I was encouraging people not to vote!!!
I explained that I was not doing that, and they let me stay with a warning, but that was SOOOOOOO painful! I was TOTALLY ashamed of how I’d let myself get to that point, that was so unlike me. Even thinking of it now I get hot and embarrassed.
I TOTALLY get your distress. I really admire that you didn’t let yourself get carried away and start yelling at your right people.
Hmmmmm…
It is so intriguing to read this “inside the workshop” post, and it got me thinking. With all due respect to Barbara’s many years of genius, (and, of course, you may find that in the course of the workshop it all comes ’round again and gets resolved in a comfy way) here are some other approaches that this exercise brought to mind:
1. back to the breath: when we present from our heads, which is what the ranting stuff is all about, it’s so easy to forget how to breath. Some delicious yoga belly breathing brings the voice right down again.
2. going against the grain: when everyone else is loud, don’t you find yourself really listening to the person with the quiet voice? Quiet intensity beats loud yelling eery time.
3. I always say to clients, (when presenting) “You can only be you, but be the biggest you that you can be.” Kinda like your biggification, Havi. Your outside big boundary may be a very different size than other folks’ in that room, but it’s yours.
4. meet your audience where they are, before you can move them to where you want them to go. Maybe, just maybe, everyone was so revved up with all the free-floating Dr. Laura stuff that there was too little genuine energy in the room, and not enough space for real pain or yearning or uncertainty. So it was hard to “meet the audience” there because there was no there there!
…just some thoughts.
Thanks for all the love and support — you are all such schweethearts.
I just want to add/clarify if it wasn’t super clear that I adore Barbara and that I don’t actually have a problem with the exercise itself. I thought the exercise was a useful way of getting clear on your message and developing a deeper sense of empathy for the people you want to help.
I don’t think anyone was expecting to get hijacked energetically by ickiness, and that definitely wasn’t the *intention* or anything like that.
So I am still loving the retreat. Just had a hard and wanted to share the hardness of it. And my own process with that. And I love that you guys let me do that and hang out with me when I do it, so thank you for that.
@Diane – *blows kiss* You are awesome.
Wow –
What a powerful post . . . . again I am reminded in brilliant living color of the importance of first meeting our own pain, our own soul – right where it is and stay with it as it shifts and changes.
Because without that, we truly being intimate with ourselves about this kind of thing – it’s so very hard to have our message come from that authentic self knowing place.
I can only imagine how powerful that exercise must have been for you and everyone there. I hear the hard part of not having alone time Havi and what I love is how you gave yourself some time to really feel all that frustration, overwhelm, concern, fatigue, etc – that’s what makes you very unique.
YOu have the courage to stay with what’s really true for you and model what it is to stay connected even when it’s hard – and you do so with such generousity and vulnerability. I am grateful to you beyond measure – your learnings never cease to amaze me.
Thanks once again for blazing a path for how to do this-
xoxo
.-= Char´s last post … Be Kind 2 Mind: Glenn Close goes to Bat for Her Sis =-.
I love that you’ve shared this, Havi. And I particularly love your recent, ‘but I love her and I’m OK’ post. Reassuring your community (well, me anyway!), and underlining that we can struggle (a LOT!) with aspects of something (the hard, the process) that overall is what we want to do, and that we love. Sounds a bit like relationships! 🙂
.-= Jan Scott Nelson´s last post … The music of our lives =-.
Maybe it’s a damnit list thing–which would also get you in the swearing vein–as in, “I don’t have to channel the scary Dr. Laura voice that sometimes takes over my head if it doesn’t feel helpful to me, damnit!”
Just tonight I added the first item to my own damnit list: my completely adorable wife and daughter were watching the very first episodes of Battlestar Galactica, which we missed the first time around, and enjoying every apocalyptic moment. Our son wandered in just as some desperate parents were putting their children into the space ship to be taken away forever, and he looked at me and said, “How will they ever be happy again without their parents?” and I said, “You know what? This isn’t the right show for you and me [damn it!].” Because it was making me miserable, but instead of doing something about it, I was just sitting there. How silly! So we went upstairs and lounged on the big comfy bed and looked at old Martha Stewart magazines together and picked cookie recipes to try. Because we don’t have to watch movies we aren’t enjoying, damn it! We can leave them to the people who are enjoying them, and go critique the garnishes on other people’s Nesselrode instead.
.-= Melynda´s last post … Thick as Fall’n Leaves in Vallombrosa =-.